Every Transcript is Here

Thank you for having me. I'm so excited to be here.

I know, it's it's always still a little bit weird for me to to be on the other side too. So I'm still practicing.

Exactly, exactly. This is true, but I know the power of editing now for a podcast, so I I I trust you to take out the bits and pieces of alms and silences.

Yeah.

Sure. So September eleventh, in two thousand one was a profound year for me for numerous reasons. I had just moved to New York City. that same year my grandma passed away and I was living with her in Trinidad and I made the decision to move to New York City. And then I was starting high school because I was 14 years old. And then a couple days later, nine eleven happened. I remember it like it was yesterday. I can't remember what I ate for breakfast yesterday, but I remember this day. I was in third period class and then my mom walked in and I was like, why is she here? This is odd. And she works, she had worked in like the same block as my school, conveniently. So she came in and was like, okay, something's up. She didn't tell me what, but she said we had to go. I was like, okay. and we took the bus. We were standing at the bus stop right outside my building, my school, and I remember just looking down the block. And I just saw people running. I saw all the smoke between the buildings. And this one lady that I would never forget, she was just crying and crying, and she was covered in all that soot. and that image stays with me. and then we went home and like many others watched the Twin Towers collapse and fall that day live on TV. What I didn't write in that post was that days later we had to return to school. But we also shared my high school with students who had a school down at the World Trade by the World Trade Center. So I would go to school at 7:30, end my day at 12 p.m., and then another set of students would come in. And this happened for a while. but what's interesting about that time is had you know 25 years, I'm almost 40 years old. I reflect a lot about how my life has changed, how resiliency

Have has built in me since then. And now I have kids. And my nine year old asks questions about 9-11. And how do you explain that to a nine not a nine-year-old why that happened? but I think it's also important to remember history and and tell them what happened. my husband is also a teacher, a high school teacher, and he often we we often say his kids that he teaches are were not alive.

during 9-11. And I remember seeing it in a history book for the first time. I'm like, this is now history. This now lived occurrence of my life is in a history book. How weird is that? So, you know, 9-11 will always, you know, never forget. And I and even my kids, my nine-year-old at school says that every year they have a moment of silence at 846 when the first plane hit. So little things like that is important to to keep the memory alive of all the sacrifices that people did made that day and everything that happened since then. We took them to the memorial and to Statue of Liberty a couple of weeks ago. So it is important that they see those things because it because it is an important part of history, especially in New York where we live.

Mm-hmm. Yes. I I was there that day, but I didn't you know, people you hear all these stories. I see online or read online, like all these different stories that, you know, it's been twenty five years, but I feel like every year I hear a new story that I haven't heard before. And it's it's very heartwarming and, you know, unsung heroes that you're not hearing their stories and like you know, it just puts life into perspective of what truly matters, you know?

Mm. Yes.

Ha ha ha. Yeah. Ha ha ha.

Yes. Yeah, I encourage anybody who's ever visiting New York, definitely take go downtown, take a look at that area. They've done great things, amazing things. the Oculus is there, which is a huge mall and the way they designed it to look like a dove and all all the stuff. the One World Trade building that is there is just it's a different feeling for sure. The memorial itself, the the you know, the museum I encourage anybody who's visiting New York, it's a must, must see.

I am. It's I fell into it. I so my mom worked in corporate America for quite some time and like I moved to like I said, I moved to New York City when I was 14. and I when I moved to New York, I also became by default an undocumented immigrant. So I went to high school, I went to college, I went to grad school, I was still undocumented throughout it all. So I kept taking classes, kept getting my education. Somehow my mom and dad were able to pay for my school. I don't know how. I don't ask questions. I just know they they helped me get through it. but I I went to in college, I went to business school at Binghamton University in upstate New York, and I learned everything like finance, marketing, economics, all that stuff. There was never an HR course. I don't know if there is an HR course now, but I didn't take HR.

But my mom would talk a lot about her work and she she was a controller and so she worked alongside HR and she kept mentioning this HR person that she used to work with. I'm like, what is HR? Like, why do you keep mentioning this, this, this, you know, function? And so I went to grad school, I took some human resources classes, and I was like, all right, maybe let me see. I I'll get an internship. in HR and see how it goes. I kind of just fell into it and I liked it. I didn't know what path I was going into because again I was still undocumented. I didn't even see a way that I was gonna work legally, but I knew I had to just keep doing something for my sanity. so eventually I did become a permanent resident and was able to work and one of my first jobs was a HR internship and I liked it.

And I kind of just fell into it. And the first actual paying job, full-time job was a HR coordinator role. And so I learned all the fundamentals of HR. I did everything. I did at the time, I was filing paperwork in a closet or in a file room. I was doing data entry into ADP for hires, terms, transfers, all that stuff. I was part of performance reviews, I was doing orientation.

For new hires, I was doing all the stuff a coordinator was doing until I was part of a project to implement a reward system for our Canada office and the US office. And I was part of that project. I saw like the technology side of HR and I was like, hmm, maybe I like the tech side better than normal like HR path, like a HR generalist, an HRBP. I did honestly I didn't want to deal with people and their emotions. So I'm like, I don't want to, I don't wanna do that part of HR that everybody, you know, thinks about. So I was like, okay, I think I like the HR tech side of things. And I didn't even know that was an option as a career. So I then saw another job opportunity posted online for HRIS analyst and I applied.

And I got that job. And that's how my HRIS path started really was that one project for a rewards system. And I was like, okay, I like the the tech side of it and that's what I'm do.

Okay. Yes. Uh-huh. Yes. Ha ha ha. Yeah.

Yeah. Yes, there's like HR operations, there's total rewards, there's talent acquisition, there's learning and development, there's all these different areas you could potentially go into. and I decided that my path was gonna be HRIS, inf human resour human resources, information systems, or HR technology, depending on what company, what the whatever they choose to call it. So that's where I spent the the majority of my career going

climbing up the corporate ladder in HR technology. Yeah.

Yeah, so I yes, yes. I spent ten years as HRS analyst up until I was laid off. I was a senior director. So I spent ten years of my life at one company and climbed up the corporate ladder in HR technology. So I was in a media industry. You can go on my LinkedIn. it's so I I s you know, I

was part of mergers and acquisitions, p you know, lots of layoff rounds that I wasn't a part of until part of until I was a part of it. And so I saw many changes. It was a global company. I got to speak with people from all around the globe. which was which was good because I would, you know, at any moment I could be talking to somebody in Australia and then didn't talking to somebody in Argentina. It was pretty cool.

So and my kids thought I was working for a cool company because they own Nickelodeon. So it was some parks to it.

Well they don't know what I do. I can never explain to people Yes. Yes. Exactly. Exactly. So the the funny part too is like I will I don't fully think my family knows what I do and what exactly my role is in HR technology. because nobody knows what that is, to be quite honest, right? They didn't they don't know this is a part of HR. So when people think of HR, they think about hiring and firing, you know? And I always have throughout my career.

My family and friends would ask me, can you just look at my resume? Can you give me pointers on this? I'm like, sure. or they would ask me HR questions. I'm like, I don't really know. Why don't you go talk to your HR person? so, but the easiest answer to always fall back on when somebody asks, What do you do? is like, I'm an HR. Like I don't even bother to say I'm an HR technology, because then I have to like explain. Like, you know, when you go apply to a role online, there's a system behind that.

I am the one who's implementing those systems. How do you explain that? And they fully get it, you know.

Exactly. At that point it's too much information. Exactly, exactly. Survived. Mm-hmm. Yeah.

Yeah, so that day I would never forget the date, August twelfth. It was a Monday. HR it was I knew layoffs were happening. we had a round of layoffs earlier that year in 2024. I knew it was gonna happen again. because also I had to put someone on my team name on the list to be laid off as well. Not knowing I had to contribute to the layoff list.

But I didn't know that I was gonna be on that list either. And I had asked my the head of my department a cup a month or two before, I said, Do I have to be worried about my job? Do I have to be looking for another job? Because I had a I thought I had a good relationship with this person. and he's like, No, you have my word.

And I would never forget it that I thought I was safe from just that conversation and then I wasn't. so there was a lot of emotions and things that came just from that conversation and whatever have you. But on that day, I was called into my boss's office and she I I love her so much. She has seen me through she's seen me grow up. She's she was a great boss. She gave me opportunities I would have never had before.

But she called me in and the head of my department was also there, so I knew right away something was amiss. Something I didn't know fully. I thought honestly I was getting a promotion, to be quite honest. But I I I'm no joke.

No, that's true. I didn't see it at the time. But I thought it was the opposite of what was gonna happen. but then he told me that, you know, most of your client group and my client group, so I implemented my client group was were the recruiters. I implemented recruiting systems and I was in charge of onboarding processes and so forth. So he was like, You know that the majority of recruiters are gonna be laid off. And because of that, also because of that, your role is being eliminated too. And I was like, I didn't know what to say. I was in a state of shock. I think I asked about, I was like, and this was August. So I was like, well, is my bonus gonna be paid out? And he said no. That was the only question I thought about. And in my head, I was like, please do not cry. Do not let him see you cry.

And in my head, I'm like, please, please just leave already, like leave so I can like break down. And so he left eventually. And my boss, who I have a really good relationship with, sh I just broke down in her office and she rushed over and she hugged me. And she was like, I don't know why this is happening. Like I I I tried not to let this happen. I I don't know why he why this is happening. and we just hugged and I cried. And then I walked out of that office and

I called over my my team who were in the office with me. We went into a conference room and I told them everybody was shocked. Cause at that point I had 10 years with the company. yes. Yes. Yes. To be not to be fair, but I don't I don't I'll get to that part actually. But I went into the office, I talked to my team, I and I had a lot of remote team members too, all over the country. So that was my first conversation with

two peop with a couple people who were in the office with me. and we just cried. We had a huge cryfest. and also we were kind of nervous because we didn't know who else was gonna be a laid off. Because if to be if I was gonna be laid off, like anybody could have been laid off. I know one person. Yes. Yes. Like I didn't know nobody it could be anybody.

So that happened and then I got onto a call with my other my whole team, everybody who were remote and those who were in the office with me. And I told them. And then my other team member who was also laid off was on the call too. And she was so gracious. I had her on my podcast and we talked about that day for her. we had a great relationship. so we just again a lot of crying happened that week a lot.

But that same week I gathered myself. I went home and cried and cried and then two days later I talked to my boss's boss who laid me off because I wanted some closure or I wanted to say my peace or I wanted to be like

Yeah, yeah, exactly. Exactly. I wanted to know, but I also kne knew he wouldn't necessarily tell me. but I did say you had told me this. And I don't know if he even remembered telling me that, to be quite honest. but I said you cannot say that to people. My rest of my team who are still here.

They're really good people. They've some of them have become my friends. And I was like, you you cannot say these things to them because this feels so crappy right now. And I also mentioned to him and I gave a list of like the rest of my team who remained. I said, This is ex this is their strengths. This is what I think they would be great at. And I tried to advocate for them in my last one-ditch effort to be like, please take care of that.

They're good people, they're hard workers. This is insane. but please just take care of them and please don't give them false hope because you really shouldn't, especially as somebody in that position. Don't tell anybody they're safe if you don't truly know that. so that was my little closure. Not that I got much closure.

He didn't say much. He didn't say much. I He you know, said the typical things like, you know, you it's not personal and all that stuff and I didn't really care to hear any of that stuff at that point. So but I was just more of me trying to say my last piece and be like, You should not say this to anybody else. So that was that. for a long time though, I was very I was going through the motions. I was very angry, I was sad, I was

Like why why me and not all these other people who were, you know, you know, all all my other coworkers who were safe and I'm like that person is safe and I wasn't, you know, type of thing. And it was just, you know, gr a sense of grief in a way because I had had grown up there. There's ten years of my life and now what? What do I do?

Yeah, yeah. Yes, yes. There's just like historical knowledge you have, right? Like you have all this weird historical knowledge. You know like why this person is this way, why this process was implemented, like how this system works with this like I knew a lot. but you know, it they find a way to make it work. It doesn't really matter at the end of the day. The life and work still goes on.

Yeah. Bob. Yeah. Yes. Yes. Yes. You feel like a newbie. You feel like, my gosh, I built up all these relationships throughout the years and now I have to start from scratch like a new kid on the block type of thing. it was a weird. It yeah.

I was out for for three months actually. It wasn't that long. but in those three months, it was I applied to maybe 30 something jobs. I wasn't applying to jobs every single day and I wasn't applying to, you know, hundreds of jobs. this was 2024, so the job market was still very brutal at that time. But I was made in intentional because of my relationships throughout the past with

recruiters and implementing applicant tracking systems. I've built up a lot of relationships. So I reached out to recruiters who are no longer at that at my previous company and I said this happened. Is there any way you can connect me to for some reason I wanted to talk to chief people officers. That was in my head. I'm like, I'm gonna connect to chief people officers and just find out about like

They got to where they are, if they have any advice. I'm not necessarily going to give them my resume and say, hey, do you have a job for an HRS person? But I just genuinely wanted to get to know them. so I had some some chats. I went into the city and I met with people at their offices and people were very receptive. People are willing to help or just you know, give advice if you ask.

A lot of people I find like when you say that you are laid off, they they say, if there's anything I can do, please reach out, but they don't actually know how to help. So sometimes you just have to give ways that they can actually help to make that happen. So that's what I did. I just networked a lot and applied to jobs. I had like everybody else, I get tons of I got tons of rejections.

no callbacks. I was part of interviews and got ghosted. So I know all of that feeling, those feelings. And yeah, that's I eventually landed another role by reaching out to the my somebody I used to work with at my old company because I knew they we used to use my now new company as one of their they had some sort of partnership. And I was like, well I'm

I I reached out to the head of the ben my benefits team at my old company and I said, Hey, I'm applying to this role. I knew that we have some sort of partnership with them. Do you happen to know somebody that can pass along my resume? So she did and she sent along my resume, made its way to the hire manager, and that's how I got a an interview. And it was up to me to prove that I could actually do a job. And I got through.

no. Is it still frozen?

I can still hear and see you perfectly.

You is it still frozen? It's so weird.

let me see. Turn off camera. Turn on camera? Did it work? Is it just floating?

no.

Yeah? Can y is it working? Okay, okay, okay. You can cut out all that bits and pieces. You're meant to retell that story? Okay. Okay. Go for it.

Yes. So I had reached out to the head of benefits for my old job and I knew that we had a relationship with this my new cup company. So I said, hey, can you happen to know somebody there? I'm applying to this role. I would love for you to just if if you can send a referral. and so she did. She wrote a referral, she sent my resume, it's made its way to the hiring manager and

And then I the rest was history, but I had to prove that, you know, the rest was up to me, essentially to you know yes, I I gotta actually land the deal, right? So like that's how I got my foot in the door, but then I had to do all of the the work after that. but yes. Yes. Yes.

Right.

Mm-hmm. Yeah, yeah. Right. Yes. Yes, exactly. But I also think it has to do it does have to do a little bit w with luck, right? Because I just I was paying attention. I don't if it's because I was in HR at my other company and I just knew different benefits offerings and stuff like that, I had a relationship with a head of benefits and we worked together for many years. she helped me out on many occasions, both personal and professional. but w

you know, she was willing to put in a referral for me and she doesn't she didn't usually she doesn't usually put in referrals like that, right? Like but she did because we had a good relationship. so building relationships while you're at a job is very important too because you just never know how it may help you in the future, right? Yeah.

Yeah, yeah.

Ex yeah, I was not shy. I was not shy at all. I knew that I had I had to do something different. I had to get out of my comfort zone and do something different and actually ask for help. reaching out to past recruiters I worked with that I may not have talked to in years, but they were very receptive to my email though. and they actually made an effort to connect me with someone to talk to that I had never met before.

Like I was not shy because I knew I needed a role. I needed to land something. I have two kids. I I was panicking a little bit. I hadn't applied to a job in years. and I hadn't interviewed in years. I am the worst person to talk about myself. I hated the tell me about yourself question and I would practice it for so many times again and again and again. I would have like I would have the

the screen like this, but on the wall, I would have notes so I can refer to it during my interviews. It was it was insane. but also being in HR technology, I was exposed to a lot of systems and worked with a lot of systems like Oracle and Success Factors. But during my job search, a lot of these roles I was looking at wanted workday experience, which is another HR platform. And I didn't have workday experience.

So I was getting rejected a lot because I didn't have that experience. So what do you do? so I went online. I found an online course through Coursera and I did two 10 hour online courses for workday to just learn the basics so I can talk about it and I can talk about it. But I always said in my interviews, I was never

An expert in a system I implemented. I had to learn it. And Oracle and success factors, I knew, and workday is all the same functionality. It's just the mindset to learn it and the willingness to learn it. And these are the steps I'm taking to show that I am serious about this. so I would say apply to the job.

even though you don't meet all the criteria, but actually show that you're making an effort to be you know, have some of that criteria as well and what you're gonna do about it. Cause a lot of s a lot of the roles too, or a lot of the rejections or people would come back and say, we really need workday experience. and then I was like, Okay, you're not for me. We're gonna I I respect you, but also you

I've been in HR tech for so long that I know you can teach a lot of this stuff. so I was like

Ha. There go. There you go. There you go. So yeah, so that was one of the things I had to do as well. And this the role I'm in now was like, well, we would like you to have workday experience, but it's not the end all be all. so it worked out.

I do. I do. Yeah. No, I wasn't even thinking about podcasting in a three-month window. I was in my sole purpose was get landing a role and being able to pay bills. So that's what I wanted to do. But during my job search time, I was doing things that made me uncomfortable. And so I always said, like, I'm gonna get comfortable with being uncomfortable. And I don't know, something about that layoff, something about

Feeling betrayed, I guess, shifted something in my head. Like something snapped and I was like, I don't wanna be just comfortable anymore because for a long time I was coaxing. I was like, I'm gonna retire from this job. I am so invincible, I'm no they can't fire me. I'm and I was just very naive. And I was like, you can't be that naive anymore.

so I did things personally and professionally to to better myself. so I kept networking. I in enrolled in like a personal branding course, and did that for six months. And then I knew I always wanted to tell my story, my layoff story. And I just didn't know how and I wanted to be on a podcast for some reason in my head. And I was like, All right, I'm just gonna create my own.

I didn't know what I was getting into, but I talked to somebody I met in that personal branding course who had a podcast. I was like, hey, Deb, I'm I want to do this. Can you tell me like what software to use? What microphone? What's the best lighting? Like, give me some tips. and that's how that started. So I that at August 12th, a year after my layoff, I released my five-minute episode of my story.

And the rest is pretty much history. Twenty eight episodes later.

Personally, I learned that you know what you can do you can start and start messy and that's totally fine. Cause I have you know iterated so much. I learned a lot about thumbnails on YouTube videos. I learned a lot about editing, intro and outro sounds, taking out the pauses and tech issues with Riverside. I learned a lot about that. I gained a new skill of editing and clips.

And you know, the art of promotion, because if I don't promote my podcast, how are people gonna know about it or find it? So it's given me confidence to do the hard thing and just keep going, even though it's a little bit messy at the beginning. and it's become honestly my whole personality on LinkedIn. So my podcast, you will see a lot of it being posted. And then theme-wise, you know, a lot of people

At the end of the day, do you just wanna be able to live? Just be able to get a paycheck, have a roof over their head, support their families, live a good life. It's really basic human things. And when you lose that, it sends you into this grieving period, it sends you into an anxiety-driven state and a lot of mental health. conversations pop up with all my guests. and those are the recurring themes that happen. and it's it's been interesting. I I would have never met a lot of these people who I talk to ever. So it's also been really great because now all my guests, well most of my guests, we we help each other out. We still stay connected. I make it a point to like their posts, to reshare their work. I buy their books if they've published a book. and we reciprocate this. Like you are on my podcast, I've on yours, I've been on other guest podcasts as well. So it it's it's been good. Another form of networking, I would say.

Yeah. There you go. It's the little breadcrumbs, you know, of life and how it kind of just all works out in some mysterious way. So

Start messy. Yeah. Yes, yes.

Thanks. Yep. Yeah, I don't have a strategy. I think I'm still to be quite honest, like the first year of my podcast, it just turned a year, was just doing things and seeing if it works right, like learning. It was really the foundation of the podcast to see how am I getting guests, scheduling, figuring out schedules, figuring out recording, telling my kids you gotta leave the house because I have a recording session, like go find something to do.

I'll text you when I'm done. like just getting into a rhythm. I still a year later have not gotten consistent in when I post episodes. Just because I am working at nine to five, I do have a family. It is hard. Podcasting is hard. so I'm still very much learning. in terms of platform and promoting, though, obviously LinkedIn is where it's at. That is where my biggest audience is. I will promote.

There. I put clips on Instagram and YouTube Shorts has been surprisingly a lot of views there. Not massive views by any means, but it's it does get more views on Instagram. TikTok I have a love-hate relationship with. I just I've never I never got on TikTok before, before the podcast. I only did it because of the podcast. I just don't think TikTok is for me. I don't I think it's too loud when I open the app and somebody's screaming at me. I just don't like it.

but so yeah. Yeah. Yeah, I mean I used to scroll TikTok and find a guest there too because people are so much more open, like especially younger people are much open to talk about their layoff stories there and record it. so I did I do find some guests there. But promotion wise it's kinda lacking for me. I do it because I have to or I do it because it just at that point I had the clip, I'm just gonna post it. but I didn't post to YouTube video wise

till maybe like three months in. So I was like, all right, I guess I should promote video. So I'm just gonna push it from Riverside to YouTube. And I only recently, like after three months, I started doing that. But I don't have a strategy. I really don't. what I have found valuable is that being on other people's podcasts and talking about it. I've also, you know, reached out to my university that I went to, Binghamton.

They wrote an article about me. So that got you know, my name out there a little bit. I also had other articles written about me through different things. so you know, promoting it as much as possible through different means, not just on my own, but through other avenues as well. So that's what I'm trying.

Ha ha Yes. Mm-hmm. gosh. Personally, another challenge personally too because I do believe like since I was laid off I got into running and so last year I ran a half marathon and that's what you see the medal is for. so running has been really great for my mind and I lost 10 pounds after my layoff, so that was great. I would love to run a marathon.

signed up for the London marathon didn't get in so maybe one day. personally too I don't know how to swim so I do want to learn how to swim. And speaking. I would love to do more speaking events in in get up in front of a room. I am deathly terrified of public speaking. So that is really one of

my challenges I hope to do in the next year. I did recently do a LinkedIn Live, which was also on my list of getting comfortable with being uncomfortable. So that went well. but yeah, more public speaking, more getting out there. I'm trying to make it a point of going to more in person events. You know, twenty twenty five was a lot of virtual stuff. So now I wanna just actually get out and meet people in person.

Yeah. Yeah. Some day. Thank you so much, Brian, I appreciate it.

Thanks for having me. Looking forward to it.

Yeah, I just moved back to the USA probably four years ago after being abroad for about fourteen years. And I have to say because Ann Arbor is I live very close to Ann Arbor, it's quite dynamic. it's a college town, obviously a v a very well educated, very well to do college town. And so Michigan the Michigan wine scene is actually quite dynamic because you also have a lot of New Yorkers, a lot of people that are from Florida have places on on lakes, on Lake Michigan, especially on the west side. So you literally can find almost everything there. It's not an alpha market. It's not some it's not like Miami. It's not New York. It's not Los Angeles. It's not even Chicago. But you can find a lot of interesting things in this market. There's even interesting wine bars popping up in the Detroit area, even a couple in Ann Arbor or Detroit area, an all German wine bar, just a natural wine bar. There's there's a wine bar that's an old fire station that's rated like one of the best in the USA. I go there for trade tastings often. So there's there's enough to keep people occupied here.

Yeah, yeah, I was I was not into wine when I left Michigan. Excuse I left after university. So that was that was the first time that was tech two thousand four. I was not I mean, I had just started drinking wine, but that was drinking supermarket wine when I could afford 'cause I was a pro college student. So I was not and when I would come back over the years I was not connected to the industry, but I've done my best to reach out and see what what Michigan has to offer when I'm here.

Well, I saw I saw a little film called Sideways. It came out in two thousand four. I was a la my senior at Michigan State University. I had never drank wine besides having like the grape juice at communion, because I grew up Lutheran, even though I'm not a religious person. So I found I found it fascinating because the intellectual component behind it and to and geography. I was a geology and chemistry and pre-med major. I found that fascinating. I moved

From Michigan State in 2004 to Atlanta, Georgia, where I ran to chiropractic college. It's a four-year program. And when I finished, that was 2000. Sorry, I enrolled in 2005, I believe. And then I finished 2009. I immediately got on a plane. Literally the day after graduation, my parents came down, my family came down, saw me, saw commencement. I got on a plane and I traveled around the world until my runny ran out. I I I set up a f alternative medical camp in India. I went to Tibet, meditated with punks in Tibet. I t I I picked up hitchhikers in New Zealand for like seven weeks, went through Southeast Asia and landed in Southeast Asia. And that's where I started chiropractic practice in Jakarta, Indonesia. And then eventually Singapore because Jakarta we had some legal problems with the business. Nothing we did, but it's it's a messy situation to do business there. So I actually got blacklisted for a few years, which I'm which I'm thank

Thank goodness I can go back there. I sit up practice in Singapore. I started with nothing. I just was eating a plate of rice every day. I was that's pretty much all I could afford, putting on some cheap crappy suit I got from Thailand going to networking. And by the time I left in fifteen, it was the one of the busiest clinics in Southeast Asia. which was really a a rewarding experience. A lot of people flying in to see me from all over the all over the region. So that was quite an interesting thing and I had the travel bug again in two thousand fifteen. I took a sabbatical to travel around the world, which went with my girlfriend at the time. And about three months in I realized I was spending all my money on tasting and eating. So I by the time I got to Turkey, Armenia, Georgia, 'cause those are countries I wanted to go to, there wasn't a l that was two thousand fifteen. There was not a lot of information.

in English around the wines of the time, especially Georgia. Georgia just about a year later just started to blow up internationally. So I wrote my first book on wine. I started blogging and doing videos about wine from obscure wine regions. That was like my calling card to start. Now I cover the entire world. I travel p this year has been a little slower, but usually I travel fifty to sixty percent of the year. I mean last year I was in South America three times Ukra I went to Ukraine.

I'm in Europe, all the normal European places, Eastern Europe, Oregon. I was all over the place last year saying I'm about to I'm about to leave on Saturday and travel season's about to hit hard. So that's it. I came back to Michigan in 2022 because and I saw my fam my parents were were older. My sister had my sisters had kids. And I was like, man, I've been a long away for so long, so I not necessarily by choice decided to kind of plant roots back here again.

Luckily I travel enough to keep things interesting.

Yeah, I I started in Eastern Europe for the most part. That's where I s because I mean I love Barolo. W now I love Ki I mean, I think I love Kianti Classic. I Sangiovesi more than more than Nebbiolo, but I was brand new. I couldn't write about the the well known regions of the world. So I started writing about obscure wine regions. I even lived in the Balkans for quite some time because I traveled dur I mean from two thousand fifteen to two thousand twenty two I traveled around the world without a home. I traveled full time.

around the wine world and that's why I was doing this. And East Eastern the the quality of wines is outstanding. they really have a lot of characters, a lot of unique varieties. And there are some really excit exciting stories to be told. There's a long history of production in these countries. a lot was kinda hid hidden behind especially ex-Yugoslavia when it was in the socialist times, Hungary, Romania when it was full communist times. So things were kind of hidden behind state wineries and and state cooperatives. But nowadays those industries are boo and it's weird because it's one part of the world where consumption and producers are doing better versus the West and Western Europe because these countries are so they're so patriotic and they're so excited and they're so proud of their local wines. And these like Serbia, for instance, Serbia's Belgrade, which is a major metropolitan market, big time market, fantastic market. All the Serbian wines sell out all the time.

So you don't see a lot of these wines exported. Croatian wines are fantastic, but because of I mean there's 18 million tourists and most of that is in July and August. So these wines never leave the country on top of the voracious domestic market. Budapest in Hungary is another great example. Bucharest in Romania, where it's you know one of the largest cities in Europe. I and definitely I think it's the largest in southeastern Europe. So There's a lot to discover there and a lot of people go over I mean, James Suckling was just in Serbia. yeah, with with some of my friends, some a lot of all all my friends, my producers, and he was quite amazed. So there's a lot of exciting things happening in all parts of the wine world. My goodness, there's two wineries in Myanmar. I was with on a trip with the Thai wine association years ago and there are about there's like fourteen, fifteen wineries in Thailand. About two to three are pretty darn good. There's a couple in Bali, a lot of them import

rectified grape must to make wine, but some grow their own grapes. So there's exciting wines being made, you know, all around the world.

That was to my advantage. That was to my advantage early on because I wrote I I don't have it anymore, but I had quite a professional website. I was writing twice a week on that website. Now I focus strictly on video. So a lot of these producers were not getting in people that are in interested internationally in their wine. So they'd be winning the show. And then there's a different hospitality in these countries, the caucuses, Eastern Europe. People are really, really Georgia, for instance, where guests are considered gifts from God. So people treat you super, super well. Not to say that there weren't there were tons of obstacles. I know this is the the part about your podcast. There were tons of obstacles, but I l I really learned how to be a wine professional, I think, through Eastern Europe. And now ironically I cover I mean, right, I'm going to Germany on Saturday for one of the most prestigious tastings in the country. So you know, I c it's it's helped me ki it's kind of springboarded me into Other parts of the wide world, although I still keep my finger on the pulse of Eastern Europe. I I'm going to North Macedonia in October, the start of October. I was already in Croatia earlier this year. Serbia is tentative. I'm not for sure I'm going, but I think I'll be going in mid-October. So it was it was in essence quite easy 'cause I was quite enthusiastic. I was willing to learn. I wanted to learn. I was excited about some of the wines that these people were producing and they kinda fed off that energy and everything kind of snowballed, you know, right? Nothing great is ever accomplished without enthusiasm, right? You talk to show the kind of people that you host all the time. I mean, I just saw I can't remember one podcast I saw some we said the biggest predictor of success is enthusiasm and energy when they see people.

they were they're they're ter they're still up. Everything's up. I you know, I've been doing YouTube now for over ten years and the first seven years I had no idea what I was doing. I was shooting on an iPhone six, luckily with a good microphone. So like the first seven years I had no I mean, it took me three years to get a thousand subscribers. I didn't really care at the time. It was just a creative outlet, but the videos were like pretty terrible. I was always fascinated with YouTube from the start. I love the history of YouTube. You know, history YouTube was originally a dating site. They just couldn't get enough people to upload to that. The first video ever uploaded on YouTube by the founders was about at the zoo and had a sexual innuendo about an elephant's trunk. So I and I was fascinated even, you know, the mid 2000s, you find like peop people doing really interesting stuff. Now YouTube has evolved where the the threshold of quality, you know, the the benchmark has raised quite a bit, but you still have people doing amazing things. And that's what I find fascin I love film. I studied film for a little while in in university. I had to learn everything. So er I mean, not yeah, I started with an iPhone. Nowadays on YouTube I shoot with three cameras. I got two key lights, probably about 13 practicals in the background, two microphones,

I shoot with all Netflix approved cinema c cinema cameras. So I've learned that by doing this over and over and over again. But I was hungry to learn how to do it. And it it's fulfilling, you know, with AI and everything like that. The one thing that AI has kind of failed on so far is video production. Even Sora closed its g they were producing video and they've kind of closed their doors because it just cost too much and the video wasn't great. So you know, in some ways I I think is this a worthless skill to learn, but you know what? This this this cr it's creative. I at one point, probably not so much anymore, but at one point that my passion for YouTube was even a little bit more than travel and wine because I was learning so much at such a rapid pace. I think they're kind of equal now, but it it is a wonderful way to express creativity.

Thank you. I'm quite inspired I still have a lot of room to grow. You know, some of my favorite YouTubers are s are I watch a lot of cinematography or photographers. You know, I see some YouTubers that their videos like are better or on par with stuff that's produced in Hollywood. And that's amazing now because you can do that. You could do that, even that kind of content with an iPhone if you know how to light. Really. It's it's pretty incredible. but I appreciate it. It's something that I'm working better at. I wish I had a little bit more time. I'm a one man show so Everything I do in my business goes through me and the editing everything. I need to eventually outsource some of that, but it I do take pride in that. But you get to the point where you try to put out as much as you possibly can of good quality in in a way that takes the least time possible, although it still takes a ton of time. So I would like videos to be even better, but I don't always have the time to do b to do stuff that I really I would really like to do.

God, I still don't even know. Sometimes I beat my head on the table. What the heck? You know, when people ask me, I'm one of the rare people in the media business, which is it's very difficult to make a living in the media side in wine. You know, it it's it it mimics even more the discrepancy between what's happening in America and around the world. I mean, you have some of the top guys, the handful of guys, you know, the James Sucklings, the guys at Wine Spectator, big making big time money. You have basically node middle class and a huge

starving lower class where they're just try they're just doing it maybe thing writing or doing things to get a few free bottles or maybe hopefully get out on some trips or maybe their husband or their wife has has an income. There are very few people that are doing this full time. And then then journalists, I'm on journalist trips a lot of times, but you know journalism's not journalists are really struggling these days, especially print and now even online journalism with AI, how it can summarize everything. So when people ask me, hey, I want to get into wine, I'm always telling them, maybe you should keep wine as a hobby and keep your day job. However, however, I do not regret anything that I've done. I've traveled the world. I've met some wonderful people in the wine business. Unl you know, you talk to other people from under industries. I have lots of entrepreneur friends who are super supportive of me. Lots of friends on C suite levels. And You know, you're not around like in wine, you're around people that are happy and passionate all the time. And that kind of rubs off. That's an unspoken that's a psychic source of income, right? That's not it's not something tangible, but it's totally worth it. So yes, I am all in it. I'm about i I find out like next week or in two weeks if I get accepted the Master of Wine program. I did have my last year, god, ten years into it, I I had my my best month and best quarter last

Q4 last year, Q1 was great this year. So yeah, every time, you know, in life, you know, I'm sure you see this when you were consulting companies or doing everything. You maybe you think you're not doing the right thing, but if you just if you're do giving it all you got and you're putting your head down, like one brick is laid in front of you and is illuminated. So you just kind of keep going. This is the hardest thing I've ever done. It's harder making doing this, making a living than building a practice from scratch, a very large chiropractic practice from scratch. This has been this has been in yeah, this has been infinitely more challenging. But and both were rewarding for in different ways. So yes, and especially if I find out if I'm starting the Masterwine program in a few weeks, I'm really in it. There's like no t that's like burning the shi that's totally burning the ships. And I am not not going back at all.

I I did that for a year just to see that side of the business. And I I wanted to work with distribu that's where I learned a little bit more about 'cause I d I travel so much when I come back home to Michigan, I don't want to go I never eat out restaurant. I mean, I get I've got so many review samples sent to me. I my own collect I got thousands of bottles here in the cellar. I never wanna I cook. I I I you know, I'm not a huge fan of restaurant food in America 'cause I'm in Europe and I'm in Asia and I'm in

you know, amazing places all the time. So I don't really want to eat out that much. But I took that job to to see that side of the business because I'd never worked in a restaurant. I just started writing about wine. And when you're writing about wine, you're going, all these small producers, everything's great, blah, blah, blah, blah. But then there's a difference about what people are actually buying. I wanted to see that side of the business. And since I was pretty much overqualified for the job, they let me they gave me carte blanche on like my schedule. 'Cause I was like every two weeks I was like, I'm gone.

for a week or I'm gone for two weeks and they had to find a way to work around me, which they did. I never missed a trip. and I I I wanted to do it for one year, but you probably have this problem with a lot of people on your on your show. And maybe you're the same way. I don't you're are you a full entrepreneur now? Are you still doing are you are you in house consultant?

Okay. So one of my friends, one of my good friends, he was actually he's an entrepreneur. He was the vice president of the NBA in Europe and Asia, the National Basketball Association for years. And he had his own business in Singapore. That's where we connected. I'll see him actually two weeks in Portugal. And when when we were sitting down having a he likes wine too, having a glass, and he said, Matt, problem with guys like you and I, we're unemployable. We can't work for anybody. That was the pro that white retail was great, but I didn't working for somebody again after being an entrepreneur my whole life. I I I would probably stay there forever if if they would have made it if they would just completely just let me run do whatever I wanted. But it was a great experience because

There there's a huge disconnect in bet in the wine business. Obviously, it's so segmented between what most people drink and what people that communicate wine talk about and drink. And it's no different I always compare it to hamburgers. I'm not a big burger guy, even though I make my own but like I haven't had McDonald's since I was sixteen years old, besides the coffee. I've never eaten I just don't like fast food. I don't like the smell. Some people love it or some people just get it out of convenience and think that's amazing, versus you have some, you know. People some of my friends are a little more foodies and would only have a you know a forty dollar gourmet burger in New York. That's that's like but that's a smaller subset of people, right? Wine's the same. Usually your tastes change. You know this as well as anybody, right? I don't know how your tastes have changed, but y you like different things as you get down the wine rabbit hole. So that's interesting. And it is a s the people that really spin it up. This is a small s like less than one percent of wine drinkers because most people don't value. It's just It's all life's all about what you value, right? And to most people, it's just another beverage. It's just like a little commodity. Not a l whereas, you know, fine wine is technically a luxury. Even in Europe where people are like, no, they understand No. Most people in Europe are drinking the cheapest wine possible. And it's super it's fun the fine fine wine is like a super niche. And that's what most people so all you have all these people trying to communicate about fighting for a small piece of the pie. And

That's why it's difficult. I mean, that's why I focused on YouTube. I stopped writing. I was like, I can't be the best writer in the world, but can I produce the best wine videos in the world? I think I think it's more possible. I think it's more achievable, something that I would like to enjoy to do, and not there yet, but could I do it? I think I could.

I'll bring it. They do and they don't. I well first of all, you're always welcome if you bring booze, right? You're always welcome if you bring the booze. I'm always showing up. Yes, I just did I just did a Michigan State kind of reunion. I brought probably twelve bottles because it was like three days we're camping over the campfire. You know, just drinking out of whatever. I brought good wines that I went and drink to, nothing ridiculously complex. And people were like, Yeah, but you know, you really see the de like people they see like you know people know, I don't know if

how into wine your friends are. Are your do you have friends that are into wine or just kind of casual? Okay. Well, you know, with casual casual people usually know what a good wine is when they put in their mouth. They usually know. It's pretty it's pretty obvious. And they'll say, wow, but then then you just kind of go back to whatever you're eating or whatever. They it's it's not something that you value. and I think the most what people get what's get l what gets lost in wine a lot of times is

It's not really about the wine itself. Only us weird geeks get into that kind of thing. But it's to me the purpose of wine is really to keep the purpose of a bottle of wine is to keep the people that you love at the dinner table just a little bit longer, keep the conversation going. And it's wines ru some of the best, most memorable experience with wine I've ever had have been not that wines that are super prestigious. And I have had the 'cause I am in the industry and I am a geek. I've had the privilege to taste, you know, most of the greatest wines in the world. But without the people that you wanna share them with, it's exciting, but it's not that's not great. I mean, my personal seller, I don't know, are you a collector? How many how many bottles do you keep in this?

Okay. I I have okay, I'm I'm still fairly young. I still have pr I probably have my personal my personal collection probably close to two thousand and nothing is I have a couple, you know, more marquee wines, but most of it is stuff that's like thirty to eighty bucks. That's I I I know is is good. I know it's gonna drink well, I know it's gonna age well. So y you know, people can get caught up

in names and stuff like that, but really the the purpose of wine is enjoyment, 'cause it's the to me, the most delicious beverage on the planet. I don't know how you got into wine or what you drank, but that's that's what I feel.

Santa Barbara County is my favorite Rhine region in America. I think it's not only California. I think the I think what's produced there is just phenom like everything does well. It's phenomenal. it's more laid back. You I I don't you're pr you're probably what, an hour and a half away from Santa Barbara, so

nice. I'll be in Bill I'll be able I'll be in Bilbao and then I'm going to Rioja. I was in Rioja last November too for Rioja camp. You're gonna have a blast. I don't know if you've ever been there before. But you're if you're stopping in Haro, you can stop by all the at the train station, all the main what you can hit like six tasting rooms in like a couple hours. the the food in Haro, the the tapas bars are very good.

I'm s my friend lives in San Sebastian. I'm staying in Bilbao this time. It's a media trip, but I'm gonna extend my trip and stay in Bilbao a few extra days, maybe even head over to Ribera del Duero. So yeah, that you'll have a good time.

Yeah. Yep.

There is zero, there's zero end. And on top of that, you know, there's a new vintage every single year. So the wine's different. On top of that, you have places like I love Portugal. I'm gonna eventually live there a couple months out the year someday, live a couple months there, live a couple months here. I I'm gonna go there in two weeks to see some friends. I think the wines are why they remind me of Italy. It's it's awesome because there's so many unique varieties there, like Italy. You go to places like Italy, they're super saturated, where every region, there's tons of wineries.

And there's no way you could cover there's like it's impossible to literally try every type of wine produced in Italy in a lifetime. It's literally impossible. So p that is what's exciting and wine tends like hard like when you get hardcore to it, it usually it's attracts really geeky people. Something like watches too. I'm in the watches and so and you know, watches can attract pretty geeky people. But it's fun because there's it's it's never ending learning.

And I think that we're happiest as human beings when we're making progress towards something. And if we're curious, if we're always learning about something, that's when we're always happiest.

Yeah. Yeah.

Well I just po I just shot up a Costco video actually today. Just like literally a couple hours before we we got on. I got to edit where I compared the No, I haven't come out with it yet where where you have Costco wines and then compare it to like if you have a Chablis Costco. What is like what does a regular Chablis taste like? And yes, I do the blind tastings. I it's it's I can't do a double bl I'm a one man show. I usually have to secure the wines, either buy them or or you know, I curate them through PR agencies or

Or importers, whoever wanna wanna send things to me. I usually know, but what I do is I usually bag them up, and then I get somebody to mix them up for me. So that's can be a pain in the butt because I'm a one-person show. I always have to find some b somebody around that can mix things up with me and not screw them up. So that's what I'd like to I I do want to do more access I realize that I do have to start doing much more accessible wines, much more supermarket reviews, stuff that

It's it's it's funny in in wine unlike it. What's difficult in wine, and people wine spectator knows this, for instance. If they put Bordeaux on the cover, Napa Cab, that issue's gonna sell out. Because people know that. And even though Bordeaux can get old, people still want to know about it, just some the the top end luxury stuff, the well-known stuff, or the real bottom cheap stuff. That's what like gets views, gets attention. And YouTube at the end the day is a platform for entertainment.

It's it's called YouTube. It really should be called them tube because it's all about the audience, what they want to watch, which makes me sad in a way, because I've just had to get over this my ego on this myself. I find the most interesting wines are in the middle class. I think at 20 to 60 bucks, that well, the prices are razing everywhere. It used to be for me like 20 to 50. Maybe it's like 20 to 60. You can get drink some of the most exciting, some of the best wines in the world if you know what you're looking for. If you have a little, if you have quite a bit.

moderate to really good knowledge or you know somebody well. But you know what? Most people don't because distribution is difficult. Why these wines are not like Coca-Cola. They're not available everywhere. And the difficulty in terms of having to find specialty shops that every market's different in America. It's more like 50 markets. And on top of that, the language of wine is really intimidating. That doesn't get a lot of attention, that middle class of wines. And that's unfortunate because to me that's where the real exciting stuff is to be found. But I'm gonna do more stuff at the top and the bottom end because at the end of the day this is I'm running a business so I gotta get attention. I gotta get views.

Score scoring s that's like c scoring can look a little bit contrite, and maybe in a way it kind of is. I think it just comes from experien and first of all, I tell people you can't a score wine changes so much and our neurology changes so much. Giving a wine a score is just a reflection of how that wine showed at that exact moment in time, with how your mood is and how your neurology is at that exact point in time. In general I mean, I would love if we went to the somebody said put went to the went to the three star system. Like one's it's good, two, it's very good, three, you're run up you run over your mother to get it because it gives you a little more wiggle room. I do j I judge about six to eight international competitions a year. I taste anywhere from three thousand to five thousand wines a year. So you start to get kind like I think everybody has a good palate, but with professionals and I actually have started to gain more respect.

for those top end big time names as I've gotten more into it because you got a taste and you have to have a con you have to have context. You have a have a Rolodex of information. Sometimes it's hard to all right, does this wine, are we scoring it overall in terms of its quality or if it's Chablis, am I scoring it in Chablis? Or if it's Chardonnay, am I scoring it in the realm of California Chardonnay? When I do wine competitions, you usually it's blind, you usually know the grape, the region and the vintage. So that way you can compare and stack up.

to what your benchmarks are. so that's what that's how I generally try to do it. I I tell I don't make the hugest I used to not score and then people wanted to score because people I mean I like reading scores too because I like to I I don't always agree, but I want to see if people put their their butt, put their reputation on the line, basically. So I I don't make it super, super serious and also gives me just a way to to give hierarchy when I am tasting wines.

So it's just I think it's just a matter of context and experience. Anybody can actually score anybody could score a wine because what is it for you? Like a point a wine that's quote unquote a ninety-five point wine for me may be absolute crap to you. I mean I I mean I'm not a big ca I'm not a big California cab guy. You know, I I'd rather I I like it. I like the Italian varieties in America. I I like Oregon Pinot Noir, I like I like Chardonnay or Pinot Noir Syrah from Santa Barbara County. That's kind of

more where I'm at. So it is it is completely subjective and people have to understand that scores even by the big names. I've tasted with a lot of the big wigs in the wine industry. Everybody makes mistakes, everybody misses things from time to time, and everybody has their own opinion.

Yeah, yeah. I I I have depending so I have let's let's bring it down okay, I'll start with three and whittle down to one. I could be happy for the rest of my life drinking Sangiovesi, mostly Chianti Classico, Riesling from Germany, and it doesn't matter what level dry doesn't matter, and champagne. If I had those three wines, I would be happy for the rest of my life. And if you had me to pick just one, I know it sounds boring. It would go in between shampagne and Sangiovese. And I think I'm gonna pick champagne because it's a little versatile. And if I'm on a desert island, at least I can drink that to cool myself off and quench some thirst. So that's what I would go for. Champagne. it's you know, I joke all the time. When I was making more money when I was in private practice, I drank champagne for f there was a stretch where I drank champagne like almost every day.

I I I definitely do not drink champagne every day anymore. But that's like what it's when I'm when I break down all my business life goals, that's like a general goal, like I gotta get the point where I can just drink champagne whenever I want every single day.

Well, no, it's funny. I it's so funny. Arm well, first of all, I'm gonna ask what your one wine is. But for me, when you talk about that, when I got into wine professionally, champagne I liked, but I never got crazy about it because I've always thought it tastes the same. Until you start tasting things professionally, start tasting side by side, you start taking tasting aged bottles. Age I love aged vintage champagne. So I can totally see, and it's not the easiest wine for a lot of people to drink. It's su such high acidity, it's so sour.

It's quite minerally. It's not overtly fruity. So I can see a lot of times where people just really don't enjoy the flavors of champagne. But it's I think it's the s I think orange wine's the most versatile, but think it's the second most versatile food pairing wine and you can go with almost anything. I give orange wine a little bit of a push because orange wine's actually you can have with salad and you can have with sweets just because the way the tannins and the structure are. That's just my personal opinion. what's your what's your one wine that you

Could live with forever.

They're pretty magical wines. My only problem with Nebbiola is it's it's a pretty hard wine to drink on its own. The tannins are so aggressive. You gotta want the t you gotta give you a masochist in a way. Like I have a cellar stocked full of Barolos and Barbarescos, and I just haven't been enjoying them as much lately. I can't even remember last time I opened you know w one of my b matured bottles. So but I get it. I think if they could tra if I could make it a way where I could just smell because some Nebbiola is one of those wines, right? You can just smell it. Like I'm just completely

I'm just completely satisfied smelling it. that's a good call though. A lot of people and and there's a reason why these wines are are so sought after and is now quote unquote the new Burgundy.

it's it's that's that's what wine does. That's great. That's that's the most powerful thing about wine does. And Nobel de Montepolciano is is really one of the you know, it's one of the three great Sanjaves of Tuscany, but it's kind of underrated. And there are some wonderful and it's changing the region's changing a lot. So there's a lot of wonderful, wonderful wines in that area. So that makes me happy. I I've did some projects there. I I go to Tuscany often, so that kind of warms my arm. And Sanjiovese's my favorite red wine grape.

So that touches my heart. That's good to hear.

Yeah, yeah. No, I I I've I just YouTube, just YouTube at Dr. Math if you look Dr. Matthew Horky, if you put it in a Google, I come up I did buy a couple domains. I siv I'm one man show, so I have not put things up yet. my old website still exists. I think it's somebody bought it. It's it was exoticwine travel.com. Maybe they changed it to wine travel dot com. I my old articles are up there, but if you look up Dr. Matthew Horky, everything comes up in all the socials.

Appreciate it, thank you.

Thanks for having me.

Yes, it is. It is. So you know we're we're we're both ready. We've been looking forward to this.

Well, he is a a Rock Roll Hall of Fame inductee from two thousand and one. He was lead singer with the Flamingos from nineteen fifty-three to nineteen sixty. if people remember the doowap era and they remember the song I Only Advise for You and also remember that song for recent movies, they'll know that that was him and his voice. From sixty to sixty-four, solo artist based in New York. In nineteen sixty four, he took over for Tony Williams and replaced Tony as the lead singer of the Platters.

Smoke gets in your eyes, yes. Yes, all of those. All of those. Yep, and and and De Niro's as well.

Well, we couldn't necessarily travel around because we were in school. for myself and and my sisters. there were times there were times where he would put us up on stage when you know when we were younger years ago. but a lot of that travel sat sat in on his shoulders and and that left the bulk of a lot of the the home activity, you know, with mom running the show. So we moved a lot though.

And so all the moves really happened as a result of where his work was concentrated. So I was born in New York, we lived in Philly for a little while, we moved to Atlanta, Georgia, and we moved up to New England. And so those moves all happened because of where he was working at the time.

I graduated from college, Bryant University in in eighty-three. And so upon graduation, I already had work lined up in the hospitality industry in in the greater Boston area. And then saw pretty quickly that that was not a future that I wanted. So I had gone to a recruiting firm, and the recruiters talking to me and I'm answering questions. And then after that meeting, I thought, I could do that job. And so I reached back out to the recruiter who, you know, had to give me an update that she hadn't found any job opportunities for me yet. And then I asked, Did they have opportunities within her company? And she said, I was gonna ask you that myself. And so I interviewed with this particular company. and there was a theme that was followed for many, many Increments in my career, a company hired me thinking that I was gonna fall on my face and fail. there was a private meeting in this particular firm, and they used to hire people in bullpen groups. Basically, this particular hiring group that I was a part of, I was one of eight. And why my manager shared this with me, I'll never have any idea. But he shared with me that in their secret meeting, when they when these management and director level people were trying to figure out the probabilities of who was going to make and who wasn't, I was voted most likely to fail. After I don't know, you have to ask them. After 90 days, I was one of two left.

And I always say, I always say in all seriousness, you can't measure heart. And that's real that's really what it comes down to. I have my theories, but the one that I stick with is you can't measure heart. You can't measure someone's desire to make it. You can't measure somebody who will do anything it takes, and not just not just the saying, but someone who actually believes it.

I mean. Yes, it is. Yes, yes. That's right. And so that's how my career started with that intangible. And and and it's remained throughout my entire twenty nine years in the people business.

Well, at the time, really what it was was that I loved it. I just loved it. and if I think about why, well, I also reached a point in my career where I didn't like it so much, which is why I left left it for a while and then coming and then came back to it. what I saw was I just felt like that I knew how to tell stories, I knew how to evaluate. The difference between where somebody was in their career and their life versus where they felt they should be in their career and their life. And that has stuck with me for my entire work career. But I saw it early on. Now, recruiting does require some level of finesse. I necessarily didn't have that when I started, but I I learned along the way. and and it kept my attention and I wasn't bored.

and and that's a big deal with me to be able to stay engaged. And because of that, that's what helped me. On the other side of it, though, we didn't talk about my mother, but she was in sales in the 1970s at a time where husbands didn't want their wives to work.

And she built a 40-year career in Mary Kay Cosmetics. And and it wasn't just about selling products, it was about showing women how they could really grow amongst themselves and become a person that maybe they had dreamt that they wanted to become, but never had any real support to think they could get.

And so I always say that with with my siblings, we followed her much more so than we followed my dad.

we all had musical talent. none of us wanted to get involved in it. See, I saw I can't speak to my siblings, but what I saw was the dirty side of the music industry. And and I wanted no part of it. And I would still want no part of it because as I've gotten older I've learned even more of the dirt and the mess that goes on behind the scenes. Just did not interest me.

I was sick of Boston. and so I I packed up a car. My childhood buddy jumped in the front seat with me and we drove cross country, got to San Jose, California in six days. I had no job, but I knew where I was going. I knew San Jose, California was this place called Silicon Valley with a lot of companies. And with a lot of companies, I didn't know much. I thought I did, but I didn't know much.

But I knew there would have to be a recruiting opportunity for me somewhere. And I landed a position three weeks after I touched down in San Jose.

It was a it was a a recruiting firm that was technology based, of which I knew nothing about.

Well, they consider themselves yeah, they consider themselves to be a recruiting firm rather than the agency level. so that was where I started and as I say

Am I glad I made the move? Yes. did I underestimate my ability? Excuse me, I overestimated my ability and underestimated the the road that you have to travel when you are uprooting your life and starting over. Because I only knew one person when I moved to San Jose. I didn't know anyone else. So I in effect had to start over. But it was better for me than staying in Boston.

Nowhere close. Everything was as manual as you probably imagine it. so you're talking about what people would now know as old school, having to having to find and create contacts, reaching out to them on the phone. And you know, a lot of that is really issued by the younger generations of today.

But it was it was grassroots, bare bones, reaching out to people you don't know to elicit interest in job opportunities that you had in your pocket.

Mm-hmm. I can't share the details with you. Yeah, I can't share the details because I don't remember them much anymore. But I can tell you that there are always there have always been ways to find people. Always. And so there is a a tactic that used to be used all the time, which is pr rarely used now called sourcing. And so back then it was about how can you be as

Conniving as possible to source names. And that's really what it was. And I got good at it.

'Cause I believe you never throw away a name. And that's how I built everything in recruiting. You never throw away a name because you never know. And I know in today's world it's not quite like that anymore. I don't know why these these these recruiters of of this century they just don't track individuals anymore. And they don't track contacts and they don't track the depth of who they're speaking with. I don't understand that.

And I don't try to understand it anymore. That's just the way that they do business, because they have resources that I didn't have. But at the time, resources I had is what I used.

Talking about late eighties and early nineties.

Well, the business has always had peaks and valleys. and what I learned very early on, that should never be enough a factor in terms of the work you do. You forge ahead. So while a a marketplace may be slower than what someone desires, you put in the work, you can still make it happen. Most people in recruiting, the reason why they never made it.

Because they quit gave up too early. If you can just stick with it and hang in there, it has to work because what you're building, you're building clientele, you're you're building, as they say back in the day, the Rolodex, you're building contacts. And and so when you're working in an office with other people, that's a big factor too. You work with other people, they have contacts. This is how the synergy works.

Whether it's finding job openings or whether it's finding job talent. You didn't see a lot of people on their own at at at that time period, th the the very late eighties, but you know, it it evolved. And it certainly evolved in the nineties.

I left recruiting in 2007. I had gone to I had gone to a legal firm where I live here in Las Vegas and I was going because of my real estate investment pursuits. And I was fascinated by the work they did because they they dealt with corporate structures, corporate compliance, asset protection as related to both the courtroom as well as the RRS. they helped

They helped these business owners develop business credit to separate the business wallet from the personal wallet. And they wrote real business plans. And they were involved in what people know of as a format of estate planning. And so I went to this company for the fact that I was getting involved in real estate. I was fascinated by the work.

And that was at the same time where I was about sick of recruiting because I had had such a long run. And what I saw in this particular legal firm was to be able to dive deeper into business. And I really wanted that. And so you know, maybe similar to how I started recruiting in the first place. I went in, I went in as a client. I I I asked about opportunities. The president

and founder of the company took a liking to me and I joined. And and I became managing partner of that legal firm during the seven year run that I was there.

No, I wasn't an attorney. I was an attorney in fact, as they call it, because we had attorneys on staff that that worked for me. I had five attorneys on my payroll. But what I was doing was I'm talking to people about corporate structures. Meaning corporations, LLCs, for folks who are setting up nonprofits for various reasons. The compliance. Without compliance, you don't have a corporate structure to protect you.

And that's what the corporate veil is all about, is separating you from your business. When and when I started to the time I left, I helped clients form over 800 business structures. I I also I ultimately directed the writing of complex business plans. I'm talking about the 180-page to 200-page varieties, the type of business plan that you could literally build from the ground up.

And and that was fantastic as well. And I got involved in helping these businesses create and form business credit so that people didn't destroy their own in a business that they still had to work and not all of them really understood that you can't let it crash. So how do you so how do you separate how do you separate the business world from your personal world? That's where business credit development came in and I took over that.

part that's probably the most satisfying for me, the founder of this company is known as one of a handful of experts in the area of asset protection in the country. And he's he's made it a point after the end of our business to let everybody know that he's the best that's out there. And he said that I was the second best.

And that's not an insult. Yeah, that it's not an insult at all, you know. the the the the business ended because when the rest of the country is going through recession in that tw that twenty eleven to thirteen time frame, Nevada was in the midst of a depression. Yeah, yeah. So even though we had clients in eighteen countries, it didn't matter. because still we were based in Vegas and the business dried up and

You only hang on for so long. So when that happened, I'm a good friend of mine still of over 30 years. We had worked together, but this time she placed me. And for that I had to move from Vegas back to Northern California. And she placed me with a little itty bitty company called AutoZone. The software division, the SAS division is called All Data, it's in the Sacramento area.

And and that led to a multi-year journey of corporate sales. No one ever thinks as recruiters as being salespeople, but the fact of the matter is we always were. In fact, harder because because the sales are two-sided, not a one-sided. And so and and so that gave me the experience in the whole world of of enterprise software. Starting with SaaS and then with cloud, moving from

From all data autozone to Oracle. And then moving from there to a startup that specialized in green energy initiatives for California and Florida homeowners. So I actually picked up the quote unquote traditional sales that people think of, but I already had it from recruiting. I just I just I just married them together. Now what's interesting about this is that where we work today.

In 2007, I met a gentleman by the name of Ron Nash. In 2007. So all these years later, we finally had a chance to work together. Yeah.

But I remember meeting him saying, Who is this? and I don't mean that in a negative. I mean it from the and I've never told him this. I meant it from the intimidation side. I just thought he was the sharpest tool I had seen in any shed.

And I just told myself that one day I was gonna have to work with them. And here we are. Yeah. Yeah.

Right. Right. Yes, they did. They did. Because I had I had the building blocks. I had I had the building blocks for sales. And so to me the transition was not difficult.

I just w Well, well, listen, I used to tell people all the time, as a recruiter, we used to be hung up on 50 times a day. And that's not even an exaggeration. It was 50 times a day. At some point, if you don't get that thick skin, you'll never make it. But I don't believe you'll ever make it in any business. But that's usually that's usually what wears people down. The combination of being hung up on because they take it personally.

Plus the fact that they're not successful. You're not making money. You're not making money. My first, my first mentor was my first boss, and he had said, and I never forgot it, in the recruiting business, and today it's the same way for those external recruiters. You're about 150 steps, he used to say that you have to get them right 150 times. If you don't, you will not make that placement. But it will be impossible for you to try to figure out.

Where did you fall short in the hundred and fifty steps? And I don't hear people talking about it like that anymore because to some extent it's easier. but at the same time, what it requires is people understanding that recruiting is a craft. You don't wake up with natural skill and ability to do it. It it must be learned. And I think there are people who forget about that. And when I moved cross-country.

One of the slaps in the face that I needed was the fact that I wasn't as good as I thought I was. And the first two years I failed at every turn you could think of. And as a result, I made a commitment that I was going to become a continual learner of my craft and not wait for any company to pay for it for me.

I wonder how much of that exists today, you know, but that's what I had to do. And ever since then I've been I've been a a sales nerd, an information nerd, a communication nerd. And it served me pretty well.

Yeah.

Yeah. Yeah.

Well, I don't put all of it on the shoulders of the recruiters anymore. I I I I put the blame on these company managers and the ownership because they're not training and developing people. You can only do so much. and if you don't have if you don't have strong leadership and particularly strong mentorship, you're going to get the results that you had gotten and the experiences that you had.

I was fortunate, never I never worked for anybody who was even close to that. So when I hear it, yeah, yeah, we've got we've got recruiters that are not good. And the industry has regressed, in my opinion. But I put it more on the owners of these companies. They don't know anything. And so if they don't know anything, how can their respective teams know anything either? Because not everybody.

Not everybody has the gumption to reach out on their own and figure out what they don't know and learn it. So that's the way I look at this energy. Has it regressed? Absolutely. Absolutely. and and then the other part is just like what we talk about, language and positioning. It's amazing, it's amazing how ubiquitous that is in every industry, in every segment, no different than recruiting firms. And this is why what I share with people about.

Is understand who you're speaking with. And and just because they reach out to you doesn't mean what they have to talk about is legit. When you come across someone that you know the lights are on, that have a level of higher narrative intelligence, that's who you stick with and that's who you work with.

Mm-hmm. Yeah, I did. I did. while I still don't know why. my theory is because of the owner of the firm in the nineties that I was with, and we were the largest privately held accounting and finance specific search firm on the entire West Coast. He had sold the business, got back into the business, and I had a chance to to basically reun reunite with him.

And help him build a new business, which I did. And that's where I went back to. and it ran its course. And at that point I said to myself, I'm not doing any more recruiting. So a lady that I had hired during those days at this this accounting and finance search firm, she she left she left the corporate recruiting world. the a the what people call agency, but really we were doing retained search and contingency search. She left, she went in into corporate, and she landed at a company called NVIDIA. And she asked me to join.

And it took me about two seconds to say yes. Because that was the one piece of experience that I had did not have. I had everything else, never worked in a corporate environment. I joined that corporate environment and and I'm proud to say I was a lot better than they thought I was going to be.

Yeah. I I that was in 2022. I and then again in 2024. I enjoyed it because it was it was a new experience. So there I am back in a learning mode, which I always like. And a NVIDIA gave you the opportunity to use your brain. And where I use my brain was bringing concepts that I knew worked. And

had to had to show some people that yes this works in a corporate environment a corporate arena as well and you're just gonna have to trust me. I know that's bold but that's the way I felt. And we created success in a pretty short period of time. And so it would that was great. and Nvidia at the time they were just getting their momentum to the Nvidia they are today.

But they had momentum. the only difference was that if you called east of the Mississippi River, people wouldn't recognize what an NVIDIA was. That was the only difference. Great firm then, great firm now. it was it was fantastic with the run that we had. And then I had a chance to go back. Now it was not the role that I should have gone back to because it was not the work that I was doing before, and I only went back because it was NVIDIA. And you could I can construe that as a mistake.

But the good news is is that I've got NVIDIA chops.

Mm-hmm. Right. I I'll I'll tell I will I will tell you it's not as easy as it seems, as you're thinking it is. First of all, when I was there in 2022, in the prior year, NVIDIA struggled to hire 2,000 people.

I underline the word struggled. So they hadn't gotten their their sea legs underneath them. Second, the vast majority of NVIDIA hires, and I believe it's still this way to to this day, unless it's a couple of specialized knowledge based talent, the people that they bring on board are contractors first.

Not full time. So there are a lot of people who are afraid of that even still.

It's a very different conversation. now I know that in in recent times where previously the concept of remote work was pretty strong and compelling at NVIDIA. I know in recent times they've been bringing people back into the office. So that that wears some of the luster off of people.

So Great great name. Yes. great great compensation, great benefits, and you've got to be prepared to work. And I don't believe everybody's that prepared to work. it's that's not that's not a place where you mail in your efforts. Also and then also the other piece to it is is that even though it's a relatively flat organization, it's it's still pretty layered in terms of the relationships internally. And so what does that mean? Well that means is that it takes a while to really understand all the workings.

within. It's not one of those where it's not one of those where sixty to ninety days you've got a down pat. No, no. And you know not everybody is prepared for that either. I I saw folks willed by the wayside as a result of I just had I had just reached a point in my life when I joined NVIDIA for the first go around was that I didn't have anything to prove to anybody anymore because I had done everything there was to do. I've been successful in all of it. I have I have a track record, you know, in the business that we're in, I learned way back when how to talk about my achievements in quantitative terms. I could tell everybody what what I bring to the table and and what separated me from my peers.

So reaching that point, I walked in confident.

At least

Mm-hmm. Okay. Okay.

Yeah. I was told I I was told that when I joined NVIDIA that someone went to my boss and said, He's been here a week and he's walking around here like he actually knows people and knows things. And she said, Yeah, that's Lloyd. Because I didn't wait for any Brian Brian, I didn't wait for anybody to introduce me to anybody. I I knew three names and I

Reached out to the people I knew I'd be working with and say, you know, so and so hired me. you know, I've heard there this is who you are. I'm coming to introduce myself and understand how I can support you. What was I gonna wait for? And so, but but but it it it was a surprise. It was a surprise to people in NVIDIA. I had done that at all data autozone and really made a stink.

when I did that. But it works. Because because from my days with the legal firm, the founder of that company said something very prophetic. They can't eat you.

And and as and as goofy as that is, boy is it true. You know? In the corporate environment's the worst someone can say to you is no. And so and I didn't hear no too much at all. People were just they were just happy I introduced myself and knew a little bit about them. and it's it's really what it is is the way we need to communicate with other people. And I hate to say it, but the that skill set is rapidly deteriorating. Across the board in life. Across the board in life. And and what people need to understand is you don't have time to be shy. We're adults now. We're grown. There's no time to be a shy adult. There's no time to beat around the bush. And at the same time, it's inexcusable to be obnoxious.

So can you just talk to people like a real person? Can you just do that? Seems to be easier said than done. And that's all I did.

There's a bunch of them, but I'll keep the list short. The first place is the fact that we are operating in what I've called the twenty-first century hiring market. This is not the 20th century hiring market that the people we work with have grown up in, and neither did we. What was successful up to about 2023 no longer works. We work with a gentleman who I th I thought he put it best.

He used he used an an OS analogy. You've got people who they're still hanging on to the fact that their resume says they've got 25 years, 30 years, 22 years, and they think that that should be the ticket to walk in the door. Well, the fact is everybody else has that too. And so they don't have a strategy for this 21st century market. If you don't have a strategy, you don't have a plan. If you don't have a plan, then you have nothing to execute. That's the number one problem. And so how does that manifest? Very clearly. It starts with language and positioning. People do not know how to communicate in this 21st century hiring market to what the market wants. The market wants three things from tech leadership. Number one, they want to understand what are the problems that you solve. Number two, they want understand what have you. Done in your career that makes you special, specifically that that makes you stand out over everybody else. And number three is tell me what you've achieved. In recruiting, there was an old expression, and it was called throwing up on yourself. People are still throwing up on themselves when they try to talk about themselves. Nobody cares about that. What they care about is give me fact of.

What you have achieved, where I can look at that and project whether you can help us. I know companies didn't speak like that in years past, but they do now. And the market has not adjusted at all. The market has not adjusted to the fact that senior-level talent fall over themselves without articulating clearly clearly the problems they solve. people At even at this level, they are afraid to present themselves as special.

and and so you hear this pushback of well that that sounds pushy, it sounds salesy, it sounds pompous. Well, you're wrong in all three. If you don't champion yourself, who will? And then the third part, in the in the the tech space, people aren't used to talking about their achievement. And they're definitely not experienced to speak about what they've achieved, what they've overcome in quantitative terms. Businesses care about the metrics.

There's five of them. And so in in my role at GHN, I have to address all three of those areas with every single person that walks in the door. And every single person walks in the door needs work in all three areas. We have not seen one that has walked in the door ready made and ready to go, which is part of their problem. That's the there's other things that we could get into, but if you can't conquer that on the front end.

There is no back-end ideal next position for you. Now there may be an what the hell? Let me take this job because I need one.

But the ideal next role, you'll never get it if you don't work on clarifying your positioning, establishing a go-to-market strategy which spells out your brand, and and really being able to speak to a company about what matters to them.

And and that's where it starts.

And and I'll even add to that, Brian. I still think that he should have been prepared for the problem him as a problem solver and what companies actually call your superpower and and showing companies' achievement because that still matters. Now he may not have touched on it as overtly as we prepare people, but covertly it still had to come up.

even in those sessions. It's it had to. And so what he did was circumvented a bit with the approach that he took. and so I'm glad he landed what he wanted. And I will also say I think he was fortunate to get what he landed because companies are are are are getting tougher and tougher in the interview stage, particularly when it comes to AI dialogue.

And And and how will you use AI to keep my teams? Because I don't want to lay off any of them. But what does everyone think? Everyone sees, you know, the the the big monoliths. Of course they're laying off people. It's just their the excuse they want it. But your small and medium-sized businesses, they don't want to get rid of anybody. They just want somebody who can bring in an AI sensibility and as a result be able to develop the people that they have that they already like.

So yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Mm. Yep, and and unfortunately, and it's always been this way, everyone's starry eyed about the big brand name.

This is this and and this is why I was fortunate being in NVIDIA when I was, because the the big brand name is not always what you think it is when you join them. And the good news was particularly that first go round with me at NVIDIA, it was that and more. Yeah.

Okay. No, thank you for having me. This has been exactly. Have a great one.

Thanks.